tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7737268075572482842.post2121473293140564412..comments2023-10-29T04:33:48.167-05:00Comments on daddyBstrong: Fifth Avenue, Uptown by James BaldwinMac Daddy Tribute Bloghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/01483912561779369669noreply@blogger.comBlogger17125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7737268075572482842.post-45951274247702935022009-08-11T12:21:07.479-05:002009-08-11T12:21:07.479-05:00Vigilante: Great comment. Based on experience, I&...Vigilante: Great comment. Based on experience, I've come not to trust liberals, white or non-white. They seem to cave in when the going gets tough. Hey Bruins describes them as people who leave the room when the fight begins. But I have gained a tremendous amount of respect for progressives. What the 60's showed me was the difference between the two. Progressives don't give up and hide out by teaching at some college. They continue the fight wherever they are. I know many, and I'm proud to call them friends and sometimes comrades.Mac Daddy Tribute Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01483912561779369669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7737268075572482842.post-7885092490039659032009-08-11T10:33:48.594-05:002009-08-11T10:33:48.594-05:00Hillbilly, You can call me white, but don't ca...Hillbilly, You can call me white, but don't call me a white liberal. <a href="http://the-vigil.blogspot.com/2008/04/liberalism-vs-progressivism-towards.html" rel="nofollow">I have never considered myself liberal</a>! 'Liberal' is how I used to think of my college professors in the 60's. Always thinking liberally and generously, but never acting. (Huxley said the end of thinking is acting.) <br /><br />I disagree that being <strong>Radical</strong> in the 60's was not being committed. I committed myself on the streets, in jail, in court. <br /><br />But, when you say,<br /><br /> <em>Look how things turned out...we wouldn't have had Reagan in the 80s and bush in the 00s...</em><br /><br />You are both missing a major point and pointing out to me a major lapse I have made in my life.<br /><br />The major point is that the Killing of Dr. King and Senator Kennedy decapitated and demoralized the Progressive movement. (Unfortunately, bullets have consequences.) Hubert Horatio Humphrey was an old and thoroughly compromised <strong>Liberal</strong>, by the time he ran against Nixon in 1968.<br /><br />My major lapse, for which I feel extreme guilt to this day, is that I lost heart when I witnessed the 1970 Nixonian Thermidor in which the Party of Lincoln sucked up the dregs of the Dixiecrats to build their new majority. <br /><br />For America to have allowed its gun culture to kill off priceless leadership such as King's and Kennedy's, I said and thought "<em>The USA isn't worth saving</em>", and went off to play tennis for three decades. I went AWOL. <br /><br />When Bush and Cheney arrived, I realized I had betrayed my country.Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07640246609540057997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7737268075572482842.post-59140080574349704322009-08-10T14:57:07.063-05:002009-08-10T14:57:07.063-05:00I look back at the 60s from my white liberal persp...I look back at the 60s from my white liberal perspective with disgust. The 60s radicals were mostly just being stylish. IT was the thing to do back then. There was no commitment. Look how things turned out. If there had been commitment in the 60, we wouldn't have have Reagan in the 80s and bush in the 00s. Most of those 60s radicals became the middle class, Volvo driving corpo-fascist lackeys that infest our country today. They don't care about a damn thing except their own wallet.SagaciousHillbillyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09511441325695460501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7737268075572482842.post-81483673055083227042009-08-06T22:22:51.492-05:002009-08-06T22:22:51.492-05:00You were generous in not dinging me more harshly, ...You were generous in not dinging me more harshly, Carey Carey. <br /><br />As soon as I got up from the keyboard I thought I should rewrite my entire comment, but I just had to leave for work sometime. I was aware that I was painting way too hastily and with way too broad a brush. Of Course I was not doing justice to Baldwin who was a gifted writer, to group him in with the others. And I had doubts about my inclusion of Malcolm X, too, who was another creative leader & serious thinker. His life, too, was wasted by an assassin.<br /><br />I read somewhere that Baldwin was presiding in a meeting where the question was asked if he thought there would be a Black elected as POTUS. There followed a chorus of negativity. After a while, Baldwin spoke up and affirmed,<br /><br /><em>Yes, there will be a Negro President, but this country will be different from the one that exists now.</em><br /><br />The country, however it is changed now from the USA of 1970's, did not take so long to change because of the words of Baldwin or Malcolm X. I do not blame them. Two assassins' bullets had already squelched a nascent Progressive movement. Unspeakably tragic ...Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07640246609540057997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7737268075572482842.post-52885550194587777872009-08-06T13:36:18.013-05:002009-08-06T13:36:18.013-05:00"Not that simple, of course"..."The..."Not that simple, of course"..."The context of the ghetto's cycle of poverty and violence was drowned out by the prospect of lawless violence. We lost middle America"<br /><br /><br />yeah, my head is also a little fuzzy *lol*. I wish I could bottle my memories and store them like stewed tomatoes. Well, my brain is like a pot of stew - sometimes it gets all mixed up.<br /><br />I don't know if we lost middle America, because I don't know what that means. But we did lose two effective vehicles that could pierce the entrenced opinions of many. <br /><br />Yet again, lawless violence is only considered lawless by those self-serving individuals writing the laws. Is that not what the whole movement was about? Wasn't the laws of the constitutions of the US being violated. <br /><br />Now we are back to Malcolm, whom some considered to be a lawless instigator. Yet, truth be told, not until Malcolm introduced the woes of the black american into the world court, did the lawless conduct of the "law-makers" change.<br /><br />But I hear what you are saying, "middle america" was more comfortable with JFK and Dr. King.<br />Yes, to lose them was a severe wound.<br /><br />Wow, did this conversation drift *lol*. My bad - I think - I can't remember.CareyCareyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08832737883766894892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7737268075572482842.post-10285831353125043842009-08-06T12:34:16.809-05:002009-08-06T12:34:16.809-05:00Carey Carey, I think the point I was trying to mak...Carey Carey, I think the point I was trying to make was not that Baldwin's writing cannot be understood in the context provided in this thread. The point rather was at the time after Dr. King's (as well as RFK's) assassination, the Left was decapitated. Severely - if not mortally - wounded, anyway. At this pivotal moment, Baldwin, Malcolm X, H Rap Brown, Stokely Carmichael, to name a few, provided the right wing a target with a huge bulls-eye. The context of the ghetto's cycle of poverty and violence was drowned out by the prospect of lawless violence. We lost middle America.<br /><br />Not that simple, of course. Just my long & short! (The older I get the more I discover I can't remember jack!)Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07640246609540057997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7737268075572482842.post-43011493219232417122009-08-06T12:20:55.180-05:002009-08-06T12:20:55.180-05:00Mac Daddy, I totally understand what you are sayin...Mac Daddy, I totally understand what you are saying about the difference between Baldwin's fiction and nonfiction writing. But again, the central point of my question is what's to be gained by reading him. I am not asking the question as a counterpoint, I am asking the question because I am looking for answers. I have no debatable issue why we shouldn't read him but I am asking "you" why others should. What usable insight into todays world can we use by reading him. Would we be left with a common opinion of "see, Baldwin was right" and then what?<br /><br />Maybe I should ask you what you've gained by reading him? Maybe we should start there? Has his words enriched you or entertained you?CareyCareyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08832737883766894892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7737268075572482842.post-30530418560743314972009-08-06T12:02:55.075-05:002009-08-06T12:02:55.075-05:00{"The white liberal has no role. He is our af...{"The white liberal has no role. He is our affliction."<br /><br />"White people think of themselves as missionaries…but we don't want you to do it for the Negro, we want you to do it for you."<br /><br />"How many white liberals will desert our ranks when we assert our right of self-defense?"}<br /><br />Baldwin was not the author of the term "white liberal". As someone mentioned, those words were used (still are) to separate and intimidate whites. The words have different meanings to different ears. If we can move away from those words and focus on the context of Baldwin's words, those words were being voiced by many in the movement. The central message/question was/is what is the white persons real purpose in including themselves in black issues. This argument surfaced during the formation of the NAACP, as well as other "movement" groups. A bigger question is what would they do when their purpose wasn't fulfilled or the going got tough? Would they just be "white" and not liberal. <br /><br />Again, as someone implied, what was they willing to invest other than lip service and money? <br /><br />Lets be real(championing Baldwin), although Malcolm X doesn't get the credit for ushering in real change and thus no national holiday for him, HE brought in the "possiblity" of violence, and then we are back to square one. What was white liberals really good for? We all know nothing really changes in this world without the threat of violence. Baldwin was one of many eloquent voices that spoke the truth.<br /><br />That's my condensed short and long.CareyCareyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08832737883766894892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7737268075572482842.post-52961111855923542432009-08-06T09:09:37.635-05:002009-08-06T09:09:37.635-05:00Vigilante: I'm not sure the concept of "w...Vigilante: I'm not sure the concept of "white liberal" came from Baldwin. At any rate, Baldwin was referring to whites who loved sitting around intellectualizing but not getting off their asses to change things where they lived. Oh, some would give money to assuage their guilt, but they wouldn't do anything.<br /><br />To put this in context, Baldwin did a lot of speaking engagements to raise funds for the movement. In these encounters, these well-to-do whites would deplore the terrible things to blacks who were being beaten up, shot or murdered in the South but would not talk about the terrible conditions of blacks up North in poverty-stricken inner-cities. Baldwin was, in my mind, rightfully critical of them.<br /><br />There were whites involved in the movement, especially students and people from certain religious groups, including Jews and Catholics. He wasn't talking about them. He was talking about those who wanted to intellectualize but not act. Remember: It was mostly these white liberals sitting around talking and mostly blacks getting beaten or killed.<br /><br />Dr. King and other leaders said the same thing as Baldwin. I remember Dr. King quoting Emerson saying the end of study is not knowledge but action. He was referring to white liberals and black ministers who wanted to sit around and talk but do nothing.<br /><br />Maybe some others would like to share their feelings about this as well.Mac Daddy Tribute Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01483912561779369669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7737268075572482842.post-28387620550361003962009-08-06T00:19:15.296-05:002009-08-06T00:19:15.296-05:00Baldwin has been vindicated by history. But contem...Baldwin has been vindicated by history. But contemporaneously his was eloquence was off-putting:<br /><br /><i>"The white liberal has no role. He is our affliction."<br /><br /> "White people think of themselves as missionaries…but we don't want you to do it for the Negro, we want you to do it for you."<br /><br />"How many white liberals will desert our ranks when we assert our right of self-defense?"</i> <br /><br />Today, as I peer back into the 1970's, I can see that I did not understand the cycle of poverty and violence of the ghetto. Fully. <br /><br />Was it Baldwin's deliberate literary strategy to overstate his rage in order to exact greater commitment from white liberalism and self-reliance from black radicalism? Maybe. If so, maybe it <i>was</i> well-taken. But his voice was acerbic, alienating and served to delaminate the Left's popular front.<br /><br />Nevertheless on my part, I could have done better by reading Baldwin's books while I owned them. I see that now.Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07640246609540057997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7737268075572482842.post-61385958561814273082009-08-06T00:17:06.093-05:002009-08-06T00:17:06.093-05:00I often come to these pages of Mac Daddy's to ...I often come to these pages of Mac Daddy's to supplement my education. Some of Daddy's lessons are a welcome complement and reinforcement to my prior understandings; other instruction from him is harder to accept, requiring more effort on my part to process. <br /><br />So it is with the works of James Baldwin. I am one of those who owned and shelved Baldwin (The Fire Next Time) in my first library (1960-70's). I cracked open those pages several times, but never <i>really</i> read Baldwin until now, after MacDaddy presented this thread. As I write this, I am not sure I am grateful.<br /><br />In the sixties and the seventies the label "white liberal" became a hated epithet, thanks pretty much to Baldwin, as nearly as I can recall its derivation. Later, during the Nixonian counterrevolution "white liberal" became a favorite epithet of the Republicans to accuse us Democrats of being guilt-ridden apologists for affirmative action, and that continues to this day. (But that's another story.)<br /><br />As I read this Baldwin's Fifth Avenue-Uptown this jumps out at me:<br /><br /><em>…. Liberals, both white and black, were appalled at the spectacle. I was appalled by the liberal innocence -- or cynicism, which comes out in practice as much the same thing …. .<br /><br />…. believes in good intentions and is astounded and offended when they are not taken for the deed The white policeman…standing on a Harlem street corner… finds himself at the very center of the revolution now occurring in the world. He is not prepared for it -- naturally, nobody is -- and, what is possibly much more to the point, he is exposed, as few white people are, to the anguish of the black people around him. Even if he is gifted with the merest mustard grain of imagination, something must seep in. He cannot avoid observing that some of the children, in spite of their color, remind him of children he has known and loved, perhaps even of his own children. He knows that he certainly does not want his children living this way. He can retreat from his uneasiness in only one direction: into a callousness which very shortly becomes second nature…..<br /><br />….. Northerners indulge in an extremely dangerous luxury. They seem to feel that because they fought on the right side during the Civil War, and won, that they have earned the right merely to deplore what is going on in the South, without taking any responsibility for it; and that they can ignore what is happening in Northern cities because what is happening in Little Rock or Birmingham is worse …..</em><br /><br />Well, speaking up for myself, I'd have to say that I did take <i>some</i> responsibility for what was going on in the South and the North. Voter registration, open housing, etc. But my understanding was flawed. In my callow youth, I naively looked upon <b>all</b> <i>Negroes</i> as fellow revolutionaries, <i>permanent</i> and <i>dependable</i> partners in our common <i>popular front</i> against the military-industrial complex. But I was wrong, of course. Because I never read Baldwin, I never realized how <i>non</i>dependable <i>I</i> was being perceived. The popular front was not between co-equals: I recall with gratitude when Dr. King spoke up against the Vietnam War (Beyond Vietnam: A Time to Break Silence); but I also recall my confusion when Dr. King marched on Cicero Ill. And his Poor Peoples' March?Vigilantehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07640246609540057997noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7737268075572482842.post-82792115715198126742009-08-05T12:48:49.787-05:002009-08-05T12:48:49.787-05:00Sagacious: I think this one may be his best. I cou...Sagacious: I think this one may be his best. I could be wrong, but I think this essay is contained in the book The Fire Next Time. All the essays in that book are fantastic.Mac Daddy Tribute Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01483912561779369669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7737268075572482842.post-57541286732193931702009-08-04T15:59:29.414-05:002009-08-04T15:59:29.414-05:00MacD, You read my mind. In my opinion, this is TH...MacD, You read my mind. In my opinion, this is THE BEST essay of the 20th Century and perhaps JB's best work.SagaciousHillbillyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09511441325695460501noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7737268075572482842.post-89678972114687305932009-08-04T10:17:51.331-05:002009-08-04T10:17:51.331-05:00Solomon: I hear you. Some would say that there hav...Solomon: I hear you. Some would say that there have been great changes. That may be true. But in central cities things seem essentially the same: Bad housing. Bad cops. Poverty. Despair. People trying to get out.<br /><br />msladydeborah: I believe everything you say is true. Then again, I'm biased. He's my favorite writer. Blessings.<br /><br />Carey: "Baldwin was a great writer but I have to look deep to see way he should be introduced to a new audience." Thanks for the honesty. But I do hope you get the chance to read one of Baldwin's non-fiction books like "Fire Next Time" or "Notes of a Native Son." In these works, you'll find in-depth discussions about what was going on in the turbulent sixties and get a good idea how and why it's still being played out today. Keep in mind: Baldwin came back from Paris to work in the civil rights movement. He was there. Malcolm X and Dr. Martin Luther King were his friends...I believe that, if you read Baldwin within the context of civil rights and black power movements of the sixties, Baldwin would make more sense.<br /><br />Also, besides politics proper, he wrote about literature and the literary giants of the day. For example, he took on Richard Wright, author of "Native Son," the top black writer at the time. He was very critical of the book, saying the main character, Bigger, was more than a sociological prop than a complex black character-- that he was good for propaganda purpose of various communist parties but hardly a construct that enhanced one's understanding black people or the black condition. His criticism destroyed their friendship. You see, Wright lived in Paris too; and he oftentimes gave Baldwin money when he was broke. This is all in the book "Notes of a Native Son" by Baldwin. I hope I inspired you to give Baldwin another look.Mac Daddy Tribute Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01483912561779369669noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7737268075572482842.post-2295631400028008452009-08-04T00:34:46.588-05:002009-08-04T00:34:46.588-05:00I have to admit that I had a bias against Baldwin....I have to admit that I had a bias against Baldwin. It was sort of like your orignal feelings regarding reading E. Lynn Harris. <br /><br />What I like about Baldwin is his writing style. Unlike Walter Moseley or even Hemingway, his sentences are long (really long)but his breaks and punctuations carries the thought. I wonder how much of his work was edited. Someone knew what they were doing - possibly him?<br /><br />I've had many debates on the "purpose" of reading certain works by Baldwin and E. Lynn Harris. I have to admit, I tried to read Harris but I just couldn't do it - I never aquired a reason.<br /><br />Baldwin was a great writer but I have to look deep to see way he should be introduced to a new audience. If it's about learning how to write, that's cool but what's to be gained by his depressing stories. Sure, he was spot on with his assessments of black life and "the white man" - and? <br /><br />Maybe it's just good reading - good entertainmeant?CareyCareyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/08832737883766894892noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7737268075572482842.post-3507191886831289682009-08-03T22:19:56.778-05:002009-08-03T22:19:56.778-05:00Teach on!
Baldwin should be on the list of classi...Teach on!<br /><br />Baldwin should be on the list of classic America literature in every school in the nation. He was on point in his observations about race relations, classism and how it impacted the whole society.<br /><br />I find it to be rather sad that Jimmy's published voice is one that is not being still read. The Fire The Next Time-is the book that really sparked my ideas as an emerging Black woman. <br /><br />It is time for a second Black Renaissance. We need to be promoting a serious look into our story from different viewpoints. I think that many people would find it useful to look at the foundation of our race from different eras in time. There is still a lot of truth in what they saw and believed to be the corrective measures for our problems.msladyDeborahhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17593695415626632490noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-7737268075572482842.post-52355774260731294412009-08-03T21:13:33.634-05:002009-08-03T21:13:33.634-05:00I don't even have anything I can add to that M...I don't even have anything I can add to that MacDaddy, Baldwin liad it out exactly the way it was then, and still is today. You'd think after a half century since this article appeared that conditions would have improved so much more than they have in this country, but as you and I both know, they have not. <br /><br />Thanks for another moving post, maybe someday real soon things will improve for the blacks in this country. It will happen!Solomonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10176268052979859960noreply@blogger.com